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Bart De Smet on Reactive Extensions (Rx) for .NET and Javascript
Recorded at:

Interview with Bart De Smet by Werner Schuster on Jul 01, 2011 | NOTICE: The next QCon is in San Francisco Nov 3-7, Join us!
50:08

Bio Bart De Smet is a Software Development Engineer on the Cloud Programmability team, an avid blogger and a popular speaker on various international conferences. In his current role, he’s actively involved in the design and implementation of Reactive Extensions for .NET (Rx) and on an extended “LINQ to Anything” mission.

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1. We’re here at QCon 2011 in London sitting here with Bart de Smet. Bart, who are you?

I’m Bart, I’m working at Microsoft Corporation Redmond, as a software development engineer in SQL Server, the big SQL organization, not on the core engine or anything, and we are working there on LINQ to Anything - reactive extensions, everything that sort of touches upon accessing data, expressing operations over data, that kind of stuff. Before joining Microsoft in 2007 I was an MVP for four years on C# and I actually also happen to have written a book recently on C#. It’s called C# Unleashed (just a little bit of promotion here). That’s basically what I do.

   

2. You mentioned RX, reactive extensions. What’s the elevator pitch for RX?

It’s basically a library. That’s an important thing, it’s not a change to the runtime or language, it’s a library that runs both on the .NET framework and JavaScript and in the future most likely in native code as well, that actually allows you to compose computations over asynchronous event streams of data. So words like "complex event processing", "query operations", all of that apply to streams of data that can have a timing characteristic associated with them that of course carry data, like if you do things in the UI, like mouse moves, you have data and you have timing information.

You have the same for stock tickers, it’s like a unification of all those asynchronous ways to get to data streams of multiple values with timing characteristics and all of that. We have a rich algebra on top of that, a rich set of query operators that allow you to do filtering, sorting, grouping, all of that - things like buffering with time, overlaps in time. Everything that you really think of when you think about complex event processing, you will actually find in the reactive extensions.

   

3. The main difference to LINQ would be the asynchronous part? Is that a good way to describe it?

Yes, sure. The problem with LINQ is that people think about LINQ in different terms. It’s obviously LIN and it’s Q - it’s "language integrated" and it’s "query". Nowhere in the language specification does it say anything about being tied to a IEnumerable[T], which is the canonical interface that you use for pull-based synchronous data retrieval, where you say "Move next" and get the next element, which is a very synchronous way of getting to data, because you are sort of pulling at the data source. As a consumer, you are saying "Move next" and if the source says "I don’t have data yet, I’m still working on it", you’re blocked til the resource comes back. It happens that the first implementation of LINQ was LINQ to objects, LINQ to SQL, LINQ to the entity framework - those are all pull-based synchronous data retrieval mechanisms. LINQ is historically unrelated to the way that you acquire data - I call it the "data acquisition" mode.

What LINQ really is, is about describing the operations on top of data, like filtering and sorting and grouping and projecting and all of that. Where RX comes in is first of all it’s about operations over asynchronous streams of data that are push-based, meaning that you subscribe to an event stream as opposed to pulling things out using a foreach loop, you’re basically just forgetting about the fact that you even did a subscription and at some point in the future the call-back, which is specified as a lambda expression, will basically come back to you and do stuff. You basically just sit down, relax and things will happen all of a sudden, when data is available. It happens of course, that all those operations that you can do over push-based and pull-based data streams are the same.

In the asynchronous world you might have more time-centric operations, but nothing prevents us from implementing those in a pull-based world as well. You could say "I’m doing a move next, but please timeout after 30 seconds." You can perfectly have a sequence and do a .timeout on that, which enforces that policy. So RX is about the asynchronous event stream thing and where it meets with things like IEnumerable[T] is really the common expressiveness on top of that. If you talk about LINQ as a language feature, definitely it applies to RX all the way through, like all the things you can do in LINQ, you can actually do in RX as well, so they map directly. Other than that, I would also say that you could coin RX as LINQ to events.

You have LINQ to objects which is like LINQ to sequences of data that are IEnumerable-based, you can now do that same over event streams of data, which are what we call "IObservable-based" which is the interface. So, at the language level it’s the same feature, at the underlying library level that the language binds to it can be really anything. We’ve just provided the second implementation of the query operators that now happens to work with push-based asynchronous streams of data.

   

4. So you can use the LINQ language syntax.

The syntax can totally be used, other than "Order by". The "Order by" is kind of funky because "Order by" implies that you have a finite sequence. Having a finite sequence of event streams is far or less common than having a finite sequence of enumerable streams. It just happens that enumerable streams are things like List[T]. List[T] has a finite number of elements, hence we can sort them hence we can ever come back from that thing. If you want to sort the mouse moves that come from your Windows Form or WPF application, sorting the mouse moves is not going to happen because it never completes. We don’t have "Order by" there. We could, but it’s like an obvious feature that would give you a memory leak. It’s like "I’m going to order something and 90% of the time it’s infinite, so it’s never going to return just accumulate memory.

But we could totally implement that or somebody else could implement the "Order by" method and the language syntax will totally bind against that. On the other side, I would also like to say we have things that are maybe a little less obvious, like you have "Where" and "Select". That’s totally obvious. For the mouse moves you could do "Where", the X and Y coordinate is the same, and "Select" the distance to the origin - it’s all the same kind of stuff. "Group by" is very similar. It’s something that you can do over an IEnumerable and an IObservable. The thing that’s maybe less expected is the notion of joining. You can join two observable sequences together. What does that mean? - Typically join on enumerable sequences means you extract some key and if the keys are the same, then you call a combiner function to combine the two elements. In the observable world, we’re overloading the syntax to do "Join" so you can write something like "From X in Xs, join Y in Ys on" and then you have to express the two keys that need to be equal.

In Rx we actually implement that as overlap in time. So you can basically use the join syntax to express streams of events and when two events coincide, if two events which are not point events but time span events overlap somewhere, we call the "Combiner" function. So we can actually use that syntax for something that’s slightly different that just an equality check on keys that we can use the syntax to express overlapping and time intervals essentially.

   

5. When you say time intervals do you mean wall time or functional reactive time?

The notion of time is kind of an interesting aspect in Rx as well. Let me step back a little bit: if you have an IObservable [T], time is implied, meaning something happens and there is some wall clock time at which point something happens - like a stock ticker comes into the system or a tweet comes on the internet, but it’s all reactive stuff, observable stuff. There is a wall clock time associated with the time that things happen, but those are just points in time, like you have a single thing happening at some point. You can also model things that have a duration. Modeling things that have duration you can do in a variety of ways: you can have two streams; you can have one stream that says when things begin and one stream that says when things end. That’s one way to model it.

The way that we choose to model durations of time in Rx is actually based on the notion of inner sequences. So basically you have an outer sequence, which could be for example - canonical example- "People entering the room". Meaning "Bart enters the room here", "John enters the room there" and so on. Then what we really do is to associate an inner sequence with that, like "Bart enters the room" and here is the sequence that represents how long he stays in the room. When something happens there that means "Bart is leaving the room". That’s actually how we can get to overlap, because like every point event here corresponds to a little inner sequence that actually denotes when things end. So now we have that time interval sitting there. All of that really happens based on the wall clock time.

In Rx you can go one step further, because we have abstracted the whole time notion behind something called schedulers. Typically you don’t need to know anything about those. A regular programmer of Rx doesn’t need to see schedulers at all. If I side- step a little bit, the layering of Rx is really like, you have query operators like "Where" and "Select" and do things based on time like Total and Sample and all of those operators. Those basically rely on schedulers to do work. That’s very much like in a relational database where you have the query expression of what you want to do and then that turns into some query plan that executes with very low level primitives like "Do a table scan on that table. Look in a B-Tree" and that kind of stuff. It’s pretty much the same with Rx" you write your query in a very abstract high level DSL, if I even want to go that far. It’s like chaining methods together or using LINQ syntax and internally that turns into little pieces of work that I scheduled on IScheduler implementations, which is the interface we use for that.

Those implementations could be based on the threads pool or the task pool or the UI loop or a cloud scheduler. All of those things really can be represented as an IScheduler interface. Where that’s going is the scheduler has a number of things: it has a way to take work - you say "Schedule something and here is the delegate to execute at some point." It can also schedule based on time, where you say "Here I have an action for you. Please do it within 30 seconds from now." So you say 30 seconds from now it needs to work. That’s relative time. Then we have schedule based on absolute time. You say "Please schedule the action that will deliver a present to my girlfriend on Christmas day, next year." You just say that’s the time it needs to happen. There is a fourth thing on the IScheduler interface, which is really the wall clock time.

You can go up to a scheduler and ask "What’s the time?" and so there is a "now" property on that that actually reveals the time. The interesting thing is that we have something called "The Virtual Time Scheduler" where you can basically do testing by virtualizing the time. What you do is you write your query exactly as you did before, but now you say "Please Rx, execute all of that stuff not on my regular scheduler" which is like using the .NET thread pool or the task pool or any of the built-in primitives, but you say "I want to do it based on virtual time." What you do there is basically DateTime.Now. The Now scheduler property doesn’t just return something that represents 2011, some month and some day, it’s something that returns some value that just happens to define the causality between events. So it’s just a relative ordering that’s being maintained in the scheduler. At that point you have totally abstracted away the time notion, things are still happening relative to each other in the right ordering and now you can do testing based on the work that’s happening in the scheduler and sort of record when things are happening.

You can do all of those things based on virtual time. That’s really where the power comes in as well, it’s the fact that we abstract over both the observable nature of things which is subscribe things and push things, that kind of mechanism. But we also abstract over the notion to introduce work into the system which is the scheduling part because you have so many ways of doing it. As a result of that this whole virtual time thing came out of it which is very useful not only for testing, it is also useful for places where you have historical data that you want to replay, but you don’t want to replay in real time because it might take two years to replay the whole thing. You want to condense it and then replay it and catch up with real time even do handoffs between schedulers where you say "This thing happens in historical time and now we sort of caught up with the whole history, we have rolling averages for stock trades of yesterday all caught up in the system". And now realtime data starts coming in at realtime so you can blend these two worlds quite easily.

   

6. You mentioned the schedulers, so essentially the operators somehow generate smaller operations and give them to the schedulers, is that it?

So it’s really like a virtual execution system or a runtime, the high level of constructions produce those smaller units of work that are being scheduled, and some schedulers queue those things up, batches of work that they need to do somewhere in the future, some spawn timer threads, it just depends how they're implemented but it’s really, that’s the relationship you know, we don’t expect people to do low level things even if you look at what the scheduler is doing, like you don’t have any idea what they are doing so make little pieces of work that are being scheduled there and that can be interleaved because multiple things are happening in the same scheduler. But that is really the relationship; it is like high level, abstractions and expressiveness boils into those low level primitives.

And there we have things like recursive scheduling for example, which is very important for things like, for example, observable or timer or time interval basically produces a sequence of longs, 64 bits integers, and they start with zero and after the time elapsed it goes to 1 and then 2 and then 3 and then 4 and so on, there are some states that’s happening between all those things, of course, like there is some counting happening like +1,+1,+1, the thing is the whole thing needs to be asynchronous, so if you implement it as a for loop, you basically pump out value zero and then Thread.sleep for a second then go to the next thing, well you can't unsubscribe from that sequence because you are basically sitting there and waiting for the thing to go to the next stage.

So instead what happens is we schedule recursively the same action just with the value incremented plus 1, so we basically schedule that thing on the scheduler and it will happen in one second from now. But the thing is whenever we schedule something the return of the scheduling is an IDisposable which is a way to cancel work, so now you have some ticket in your hand that you can say "I’m not interested in the timer anymore, you can basically call dispose on that thing it will get it out of the scheduler and it will not happen anymore". So, to be in that world of nonblocking we need to have those very small fine grained pieces of work that happen on the scheduler and each of those pieces of work you can call dispose on, saying "I don’t want you anymore".

So that’s what the operators ultimately go into, you can see the layers of composition here: on the very high level you have the pipelines of queries, start with the source, do select, some time based operations and grouping all of that stuff, at the end that thing hasn’t done anything just yet, it’s only when you start doing subscribe on it, it starts working, it’s lazily evaluated, it’s totally lazy. So if you do subscribe on it what you get back is an IDisposable that allows you to unsubscribe. Unsubscribing means telling the scheduler not to do stuff that’s still queued up, it’s just that IDisposable is that your ticket to cancel out how many items that might have been scheduled in order to make that query execute. So basically we can compose not only on the sequences using those query operators like have two observables and merge them together like composition of multiple sequences, you can also compose those cancellation mechanisms.

We do a little piece of work in that scheduler and a bit in that one over there, and we bundle all those things together into one IDisposable that we give to you and do subscribe and call cancel on that it just propagates trough the system and cancels out all of the things that are operational artifacts of executing that query and that’s a very nice way of composing in both directions.

   

7. Talking about asynchronous, C#5 will have a new feature called async and await, how does that relate to Rx, do you use it?

It’s a very good question. There are a number of things that we can talk about here. First of all the way of doing async programming in .NET has always been different ways of doing it. We have for example, the Begin/EndWait, not the Begin/End invocation patterns so you can do things like "FileStream.BeginRead" and basically the BeginRead just takes all the parameters to do read of a file stream which means getting it a byte array and an offset and a length and all of that stuff and it returns immediately using something called an AsyncResult that basically allows you to wait for the thing to complete. But you can also give it a call back function that says when the thing is complete we call you back, and in there and you need to take that async result and give it to the EndRead method to say "Please give me the data that corresponds to this particular piece of work".

If you talk in win32 terms is pretty much the same like I/O completion ports and all the low level primitives that the operating system has, it’s pretty much the same thing, just higher level of abstraction. More recently we’ve seen the world evolving to Task[T]. Task[T] was introduced in .NET 4, in the Task Parallel library, it’s basically if you talk in computer science terms it’s like the future of T, some people have other words for it but basically that’s what it is. What a Task[T] is it runs little piece of work you can wait for that thing or you can schedule a continuation so you can see on the task "continue with", give it some delegate and that’s your callback function.

Now, if you do that for a lot of things you have all those callbacks sitting throughout your code and your code doesn’t look sequential anymore, you have some task you do continue with, and then you have some delegate. Luckily, you can write them inline using lambda expressions, syntax and so on, it’s already far better than it was in C# 1.0 where you would have separate methods somewhere else; you see some of the problems already coming and you have to share state between those things it gets very unwieldy very fast especially if you want to do that in typical sequential setting where you say "Now I want to have a while loop that basically does some task and when it continues the loop needs to go to the next thing". All of a sudden you need to build a state machine keeping track of all those things and scheduling the same method every time and doing a jump with a goto, it just doesn’t work, doesn’t scale to think about it.

And so the await, the next version of C# and VB has this feature called await that basically allows you to do the sequential composition of those tasks so you can basically have a Task [T] and do await on that, so you can basically write await as a key word and then some expression that returns a Task [T]. What that does is basically it schedules all the code beyond the await statement, it’s actually an expression - everything beyond the await expression and your code gets scheduled as a continuation. But then you can have another await in there and just do semicolon at the end and just dress up your code and put the whole thing on a while loop and so on and so on. What the compiler does is it builds the state machine that you would have to write yourself but your code looks exactly as it did before instead of doing a sequential, well not sequential but a synchronous read to a file you can now do BeginRead and instead of doing just BeginRead you would have to put await in front of it. That’s all you have to do.

The syntax, just that little key word, but other than that your code looks exactly the same, synchronous are asynchronous, it just happens that the whole things is now asynchronous because it schedules thr continuation as part of the task. So that is very good for single value computations where you await the next thing to come back from your file stream, awaits reading the next one kilobyte from the file, and it’s done and then you have your kilobyte and you can work with it. Now, if you have events streams that doesn’t work that well it’s really about multiple values coming out of some sequence, like an IObservable[T]. Awaiting that is kind of an unnatural act, because what are you awaiting, the first element, the second element, the whole thing? Although RX gives you await on IObservable[T], it’s an unnatural thing to do. Await actually means is just: await the whole sequence bundle it up in a List[T] and give that thing as the result.

If the sequence is infinite, you have your memory leaks sitting there so it’s an unnatural thing. But luckily the language has a way of doing composition on multivalue sequences it’s just called LINQ, you can just do from x in your events sequence "do something", that basically that "do something" is a continuation that happens for every single value that’s being pushed out into the system. The summary of all of this is if you do synchronous single value things, well, C# has it covered and VB has it covered as well, semicolon for sequencing, assignment, all of those things are single value and synchronous. Multivalue and synchronous we’ve had since C# 3.0, actually C#1.0 because multi value synchronous data operations are the foreach keyword, foreach X in Xs do something, that is definitely synchronous because the foreach doesn’t move on until it has seen everything and it’s about multiple values, obviously.

In C# 3.0 we got an additional feature which is LINQ, just allowing you to write query expressions on top of multi value sequences, now in the next version of C# we have await and async which is really about single value, asynchronous which happens to be related to Task [T] but language is agnostic of the fact you are using Task[T] or anything else, so you can implement the await pattern for anything just put some extension methods on it and the compiler says "I know this thing" and the await keyword will work. But that is just asynchronous for single values, you will do something like x = await of some task. X will be the single value coming out from the task when the task is complete and the code will continue to execute. Now, for multi values asynchronous you have Rx, so that’s really where the two relate to each other. If you do multiple values it’s more natural to think in terms of LINQ statements or LINQ expressions so that’s where Rx sort of ties back to the language.

So, really, the two are complementary, and often people in technology say "We have two API’s, how embarrassing let’s just say they’re complementary and the customer won’t ask anything anymore"; in this case this I‘m really serious, these two are really complementary, one is about single value things and one is about multi value things. Historically we have had different language features for both and in the synchronous world it makes sense to have the same different things than in the asynchronous world cause otherwise you would be making single value things which are very common in any framework, single value access to data streams or web service calls or all of that. You would artificially sort of morph them into multi value things like the special case of a multi value thing is a single value thing.

It’s like you say to every C# developer to do single value synchronous things you need to wrap all of your values into single cell arrays. That’s the same thing as you would force upon users by saying "Rx is the solution for anything asynchronous", that would mean if it’s a single value asynchronous thing it would be an observable sequence with one thing in it, that totally works, there is nothing technically that would forbid us from doing that. It’s in quite some cases unnatural for people to do that, if it’s a single value why don’t you give me the single value as opposed to a collection that contains that single value. Less people would say it’s always about lists, it’s always about multiple values, if it’s a single value it’s just a special case it still has brackets around it and in C# they say "Let’s be a little bit more pragmatic, if it’s a single value thing it surfaces in the language as single value thing".

That’s what await is for asynchronous now and Rx is in the multi value stream camp, complex event processing, that kind of stuff.

   

8. You’re talking about LINQ and with RX, about composing operations, which naturally brings everyone to the question: where is the Monad hidden in there?

Yes, should we really go there? Let’s maybe talk briefly what the interpretation of a monad is. So monad is this thing called, a functional construct and functional languages that allows you, I will paraphrase it using my own words, it’s about threading some computational aspects to your code. Typical sample is nullability or option types, they will say "I still want to write my huge amount of code here in the assumption that the thing coming in is not null, the thing coming out of the first function call is not null, and the thing coming out of the second function call is not null. I just want to write f of g of h of x, if any of those things is null, just propagate the null thing, just propagate the fact that there is no result", don’t let me do something like "If x is not null than call h of x assign it to a temp" "If the temp is not null than do the next thing" and so on and so on. So you want to hide that complexity behind something, and monads are very good at doing that.

For example the monad of IEnumerable [T], the sequence thing, the synchronous sequence of multiple values actually has some operations called "Select many". "Select many" is the monadic bind operator in .NET. What that means for an IObservable[T] or a IEnumerable [T] is really you’re foreach-ing over the outer sequence and then you’re basically invoking some function for the inner sequence, you’re doing a foreach over that and then you call some function. So for the monad of "Select many" is about getting rid of those foreach things, you are basically saying that’s an aspect if you’re dealing with sequences somebody will have to go over all the elements, but don’t let every single user do that, we just can compose it.

A typical example here is products and suppliers. Typically, in classical imperative C# you utilize something like foreach product in products, for each supplier in the current products.suppliers, we would have this nested loop where the outer loop’s product has a little function mapping it on to the supplier, and for every supplier for that particular product you can do something like ConsoleWriteLine product is shipped by that supplier and that kind of thing. In LINQ you can write something like products.SelectMany of product goes to product.suppliers and then you have an IEnumerable of suppliers, that basically corresponds to all the suppliers across al the products.

So you get this kind of flattening thing in there as well, you have inner sequences for every product but they all sort of get projected on to the same flat sequence. So, that is what "select many" really does. Now in observables we have "Select many" as well, the only two things you need for a monad, you have two different definitions, but I will use one definition of a monad that says one thing you need is return - that is basically, given a single value, that’s not yet in the monad, please bring it in there. So for example, for IEnumerables, the way to do return is - I have a single product here, I want to make an IEnumerable products out of that. Well, how do you do that, you allocate a single cell array, and then you have your IEnumerable of products and you can do lots of stuff. So that’s basically a way to jump on the boat, jump in the ship. Then, "Select many" is the monadic bind operator that I just explained here, given a sequence and a function that maps every element on the inner sequence I can give you the flat projection of all the inner sequences, but there is only one sequence again.

In Observable we have exactly the two things. Observable.return is much like a single cell array but it’s an asynchronous thing, it’s not like an array, an array is pull based and synchronous, so the way that observable return works is you basically get the sequence that when you subscribe you get a single value thrown at you in your continuation, in your event handler, that’s the end of it, you get your single value, just like foreach over the cell array, it just loops once. So that’s what we have there. For "Select many" we have basically just that thing; what "Select many" is about nested subscriptions, a sample is dictionary suggest, dictionary suggest looks as follows, you say for every word the user writes in the textbox, I want to do a web service call and then get all the words that start with the entry of the user. So the user types "reac", you get reaction, reactor, reactive, all of those things.

That’s a pretty typical sample, that’s a about this nesting, you say outer sequence is what the user is typing in the textbox, and that changes every second or so because the user is doing stuff and then whenever it changes we fire up the web service call that basically starts processing results and then bumps them out. Now the question is how does the result look, because the user might be typing one word now and then half a second later another word, what’s really going on there? Because it’s asynchronous, what does it mean to flatten the results of those inner sequences that correspond to the web service calls? Well the answer is they just overlap, they just get merged in time, that means they those two web services calls for the first request and for the second request of the user are just in flight at the same time and whenever the results come back on those two sequences that are in flight we just project them out to the resulting sequence.

That is what really means to do monadic composition with observable, you say given an observable sequence and they a way to map every element of that sequence onto an internal inner stream please give me a stream that collects all the results of the inner streams. So that is what "select many" does, takes an observable, a function of an elements to another observable and it returns the flattened view of the observable collections that come out of the functions being called for the outer elements. That’s something that most people don’t need to know about actually, because the beauty is in LINQ this totally gets abstracted behind the from keyword. So you can write from words in textbox, from suggestion in the web service call of the words, select suggestion and the result is an IObservable of suggestions. Whenever the user types we start up that internal web service call thing which is "Web service call of words", I think I call it, so that thing is going and just bumps out its results to your subscription, to your event handler.

And so, you don’t really need to see that, but it’s one of those operators that is very powerful, it can actually implement like 90% of common operators using that, Where and Select, those two ones are just very special cases of a "select many" call, it’s left as an exercise to build that, but it’s interesting to see how powerful its single operator is.

   

9. We’ve been talking about RX on .NET but there is also a JavaScript version. Why did you build a JavaScript version?

Good question. We could talk in a number of dimensions here, first of all there is definitely a trend in the industry to go for JavaScript, you have JavaScript on every browser, every client, every device, you know, JavaScript, HTML 5, there is no reason why we shouldn’t have observables there, it allows you to express your code much more concisely, you don’t have all those callback thingies, you have lots of things that are inherently about multiple values. You could go to the JavaScript committee and say "C# is doing this await thing, you should have something very similar there" but that doesn’t help with multiple values things, like say you have a Twitter stream and you’re getting callbacks from a tweet that you’re following or a Twitter stream that you are following, you want to render them in HTML somewhere in some nice way, so you have to deal with multiple values. The expressiveness of LINQ kind of things is very well there; so that’s the rational of doing it, there is a need there.

Secondly it’s definitely a jungle out there, if you look at the amount, or the number of ways to do asynchronous it’s kind of funny, in JavaScript you can’t really do the blocking thing, everything is built around asynchrony and asynchrony is everywhere. At the same time they don’t have anything in the language that helps to do that, you have to do it this way, but we won’t help you so it’s like, your loss, so it already falls down there and people are doing it in all sorts of frameworks - jQuery and Dojo and XJS and Node.js and all those things are all doing asynchronous but in a different way. By slamming the observable interface, if I can even talk about interfaces in JavaScript, they simply don’t have types, if you say like those things 'implement' IObservable and we give you a common set of operators you can glue all those things together.

I’m totally fine if you’re using that framework and that framework, but don’t punish the poor middle guy that has to put all those ingredients together and find a solution, you basically say "All of those are observables, here is your set of 50 query operators that you can use to combine them, and just use those", and so you’re pushing the headaches to the people writing the asynchronous libraries to bring the things together you can just compose them seamlessly. That’s really where the whole thing comes from. Of course we can only go that far in the sense that JavaScript has, well what JavaScript has, they don’t have a way to introduce concurrency in the system other than using timers.

Our notion of an IScheduler is something that in .NET makes a lot of sense because you have, if I think about it 4 or 5 or maybe 6 ways that you can introduce concurrency, you can spawn a new thread, you can use the thread pool, you can use a task pool, you can use synchronization context, WPF dispatch, WinForms dispatch, you can introduce concurrency by saying I am just going to execute it and some queue on the current thread, you have all those ways of doing it. In JavaScript you just have one, that abstraction makes a little less sense in that world although we still carry it forward so that you can do things like virtual time scheduling and testing. It makes sense to still have the abstraction there but there is definitely a different balance in the weights, in Javascript it’s a lot more about creating bridges to asynchronous API’s to make it easier for you to compose those using Rx and observables rather than abstracting over a lot of ways to do concurrency in the system because there is just less of that.

In .NET is sort of the opposite of that. There are maybe 3 or 4 ways to do asynchronous stuff in .NET currently, like events and asynchronous methods pairs and tasks, that are the three basic things, we have bridges for those but you have 7 or 8 ways of introducing concurrency, so the balance is different but the library is exactly the same. Everything you can do in JavaScript you can do in .NET and vice versa the query operators it’s really the essence because concurrency is something we have to deal with, it’s just nasty business that’s there so we abstract over that and then we are done with that, and the existing world - well we can’t change that so we just slam the IObservable interface on top of that.

But ignoring those two touches with reality, if you will, the core of the library, the expressiveness over those sequences using all those operators is exactly the same in both worlds, so that helps a lot with people I think, even carrying code forwards and backwards between the two platforms, if you say today I am doing a lot of things in Silverlight but tomorrow maybe I want to do parts of that in HTML5 and JavaScript, well we can do that, saying I want to lighten up some of my web apps using Silverlight because I am just falling off a cliff here using what they have in the browser, I want to create some application in my enterprise using the same logic but now based on .NET, well you can take the JavaScript code, it almost looks the same as C#, you can take that code paste it in your .NET editor, just tweak it syntactically a little bit and it will be the same code, the same level of abstraction, it should be really simple to carry forward things between both languages.

There is one thing that is unfortunate about JavaScript is that they don’t support overloading very well, like single method 15 overloads, in the .NET version we do have that because it’s very convenient to have something like the buffer operator for example, observable.Buffer has maybe 10 overloads, one that buffers with time, one that buffers with count, one that has a maximum size of the buffer, this and that. So you have a lot of these things over there which are just hidden behind the single thing in the menu, like buffer. In JavaScript you can’t even check on the types of parameters, the number of parameters that needs to be dynamic so it doesn’t really work very well to slam everything behind the same thing, so you might find more method names or function names in JavaScript that actually specify what you are doing, so you will have things like buffer with time and buffer with count.

Originally we did have those in the .NET version but then we said overloading is the way of doing things there, to bundle things together that are semantically the same thing, just with variations in the way you want to parameterize the thing, we go for overloading in that world and in the other world, well we can’t do that, just surrender and say this is the best approximation, so that’s really where we are with that.

   

10. RX has been out for about a year or so now, for a couple of months. How are you going to release it, how are users going to get RX besides the current demo versions?

I can relate to that in a couple of tasks here. First of all, RX is already out there fully supported for one particular platform, which is Windows Phone 7, we have RX built into the device, you can use it there and get full support and anything you want. Now, what we are basically doing currently, we want to move forward with RX as a product for any platform that we support so that is .NET and Silverlight and likely JavaScript in the first release, so those are the three flagship places where we want to be, and Windows Phone 7 as well actually, we will have an update for that library coming up as well.

So the release is due later this year, so we are currently working on that, by the time this interview might be out it might already be there, we will let people know by putting some link if that’s the case. The release will be fully supported, that’s what the current plan looks like and also have documentation available, typical thing that people want. We already have very active forums on line that people can go there, so it’s amazing to see how much expertise there is in the community, like we have a couple of people that just jumped on there like a year ago, when we sort of saw all the answers they were giving to other people at that point, well they are still in the imperative mind set of C# programmers but they move much more towards the functional style of doing things that Rx is great at. Now if you just ask a question over there the same day you will have three people that are just experts in Rx even not within our own team, like people from the community giving great support so, the community is already taking care of itself, which is a great thing.

But other than that we want to have the official channel for the support and all of that, so we are working on that currently. Now, at the same time, people should not confuse this having a v1 thing with the inability to move quick, typically you see something like "Oh, there is a V1 product, if I add two years to the calendar there will be a V2 product, and in between there will be silence, maybe some beta and some release candidates, in the last six months there, but that’s about it."

Not so much with Rx, the way we want to go forward is basically we want to have two releases at the same time, so we have this stable release, which is fully supported, which is the 1.0 release and then maybe 1.1 or 1.5 or 2.0, whatever the version scheme will be, and then we will have those fast iterations that people have already seen right now, people who have been using Rx for the last year or so will have seen 20 releases or more, every two or three weeks we had a new release out and we are still committed to do that whether it’s two weeks or four weeks, I don’t know, but it will be in that time span we’ll have new things coming out. Now, people shouldn’t yell at us saying "You just broke my code because you changed overloads or you changed the semantics of something", it’s pretty much an experimental release, doing things quickly and trying to figure things out, but we want to have interactions with the community all the time.

At the same time we will have the stable releases which might be six months or one year or something that we have the next big release out because it helps a lot with certain categories of customers that say "We need to commit to a certain version and it needs to be fully supported because of all our release criteria that we have within the company, of course". But at the same time we want to have this fast moving train alongside. So the philosophy that we will have there is that the experimental release is a superset of the stable release, so the 1.0 product will likely be less than what we have at the time we’re filming this, we’re talking March 2011.

If you look in RX you will find a lot of operators that in the 1.0 product you’ll see 90% of those, because there are 10% in there that are experimental that we put in there because we only had experimental releases, but there are still things we are playing around with, so will drop this on the floor for the 1.0 release saying this is 1.0, it’s stable and it’s documented and everything you want and then we will have the experimental releases picking up where we are, within six months or one year we’ll say we want to have a next release, we’ll just pick up the things we think are ready and there are still experimental moving forward until it’s ready to go. But that’s a long story short, the philosophy that we want to go forwards.

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