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Iron Speed Designer 6.0 Has Been Improved

by Abel Avram on Mar 05, 2009 |

Iron Speed Designer is a Web 2.0 application generator enabling developers to visually create web pages for .NET/IIS without needing to know HTML or ASPX. The latest version, 6.0, has an improved layout editor, new page types, new workflow page types and live page preview.

Iron Speed Designer 6.0 has a set of new features:

Layout Editor – the new layout editor allows developers to visually create and modify web pages without knowing HTML or ASPX.

Workflow Page Types

  • Emailable table and record pages – one can send a table or a record directly from the application via email
  • Printable table and record pages – create pages ready to be printed

Page Types – Record in Table, Table – Table, and Table – Record pages can be constructed by putting together visual elements representing tables or records within a single control.

Live Page Preview – pages can be previewed within Iron Speed Designer without compilation or loading the page in a browser.

Iron Speed Designer comes in three editions: Free, Professional and Enterprise. There is no time limitation on using the Free edition, but its number of features is quite limited compared to the Enterprise one.

Iron Speed Designer needs an Internet connection all the time it is running. To be able to use it offline, one needs to activate the offline mode which can be later deactivated if necessary.

The OS requirements are: Windows XP, Windows 2003 and Vista. It works with the following databases: Microsoft SQL Server, Oracle, Microsoft Access and MySQL. Web Server: IIS 5, IIS 6, IIS 7. Browser: Internet Explorer. Firefox is supposed to render well but not supported. Third party controls: Crystal Reports, FCKEditor, Infragistics, Telerik. 

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Community comments

Avoid at all costs... by Curtis Schiewek

I've been in the unfortunate position of being forced to use this product on a couple of projects over the last couple of years, and let me tell you it's nothing but a nightmare.

Some of the many problems I've encountered:

  • ORM layer lacks any real support for many-to-many, and one-to-one
  • relationships
  • It's 100% IE only. Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera all have rendering issues.

  • It's ASP 2.0. Doesn't use ANY of the functionality from later frameworks

  • It's heavy. It enables ViewState for every control by default.

  • Layout relies extensively on tables instead of CSS.

  • The generated HTML pages aren't even close to being valid (X)HTML, and you can completely forget about passing any WAI tests.

  • The support for web services is laughable at best.

  • The IronSpeed Designer application is extremely buggy and slow. Click an option in a wizard and it's hit or miss if it will actually take effect.

  • No integration with Visual Studio. You need to be constantly switching between the IronSpeed app and Visual Studio, which is a process that takes 10 minutes.

  • It's expensive. Call them for a quote, you'll see.

  • Support is a joke. We pay a lot for maintenance, yet every time we have an issue (even if it's obviously a bug), we're told to upgrade to their newest version or pay for additional support.

  • Speaking of upgrades, the process to upgrade a pre-existing app is painful, especially if you have done anything out-of-the-box with your app.


  • I could really go on, but the bottom line is that this is not a solution for application developers. This product is really only useful for those end-user folks who like to "develop" apps in Access and they want to make the move to the web. Don't even waste your time with the free download.

    I'm really baffled as to why this is even posted here, as this product is of no real interest to real application developers that I imagine make-up the InfoQ readership.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez

    If you want something similar, but much more powerful, 100% free, and open source, and "real application developer oriented" try AribaWeb. It will surprise you.

    It is of course not perfect (but IMO it almost is), its InstanApp MetaUI is still not capable of generating a functionally complete crud generator, but it comes pretty close.

    Try for yourself by Jeremy Scrime

    I've been using this product for over 3 years and couldn't be happier with the time and money and effort it has saved myself and my organization. The company is extremely customer centric and listens to your input. The user community is one of the best I've had the opportunity to work with. The combination of the Company, the community, and the end product make this one a no brainer for anyone looking to save time and/or money in the development of Highly Professional .Net Applications.

    I use Sql Server, Reporting Services, Telerik 3rd Party Controls and have never had even the slightest problem with the output of my Iron Speed generated application. Perhaps the best proof is to try it yourself as the company has a completely free version to get you started in learning the product.

    I would highly recommend this product to anyone interested in focusing on the business rules of their specific application rather than on the complex and time consuming chores of generating a proper framework for all of your applications to run within.

    Jeremy

    An excellent product by Paul Modiano

    Iron Speed is the best way I know to speed ASP.NET development projects along. I have been using it for 4 years and each year, it makes me more money by dramatically reducing development time. I even used Iron Speed Designer to build a mass-marketed content management code generator ( www.logicaldevelopers.com/logicalcms ). Iron Speed is a code generator that is sophisticated enough to be used to make another code generator.

    If you are not a proficient ASP.NET developer, you will be surprised at what you can do with it. If you ARE proficient at ASP.NET, you will be nothing short of astounded at what a powerful developer it will make you.

    Paul.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by staffan w

    IronSpeed is the probabably best way I know to learn ASP.NET development projects. I have been using it for over 4 years and each year, it and I learn a lot everyday..And the best is that you have an application which works from start. You can build small application in minutes !! / staffanw

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Curtis Schiewek

    Please be aware that Jeremy, Paul, and Staffan are all "MVPs" with IronSpeed (see www.ironspeed.com/mvp/MVPs.aspx), so their "glowing reviews" should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Paul Modiano

    Yes I am an Iron Speed MVP. That does not negate anything that I have said or shown. Iron Speed does not pay MVPs. We achieve our status by showing off the great things that we are able to accomplish with this product. That you were not able to leverage your use of this product in the successful, profitable and cost-saving manner that we were does not take an ounce away from the fact that it worked for us and continues to do so.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Curtis Schiewek

    Paul,

    Although you might not receive income directly from IronSpeed, you most likely do derive income by providing consulting services to users of the product. I thought it only fair to disclose your relationship with the company so that your recommendation would be read in the proper context, that of someone with a vested financial interest in the product.

    I'm glad the product works for you, and if you'd like to enlighten me as to solutions to the problems I mentioned in my first post, I'm all ears.

    That being said, I'm guessing that my issues just weren't a real concern for your projects, as evidenced by the fact that your link helped prove my point about valid markup.

    Curtis

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Jimi Jegonia

    Curtis,

    If mark up validation is the only thing that matters, probably you know why these huge websites are having 100s of mark up errors?

    validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.inf...

    validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eba...

    validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asp...

    validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mic...

    --
    Jimi Jegonia
    Iron Speed MVP Developer
    www.jimitron.net
    www.jimitron.com

    The Choice Tool by Jimi Jegonia

    Developers have different agendas, product focus and career directions.

    Looking for the right tool is never an accident; it always involves open participation and sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; It represents the wise choice among many alternatives.

    Iron Speed Designer is my choice:

    -It saves me more than 80% development time
    -It gives me plenty of time to learn other means of productivity
    -It gives me no limit to deliver whatever applications demand
    As long as I give my best the all-abounding goodness naturally comes.

    Every new version that Iron Speed Designer bring comes with a new technology improvement that can help us developers persistently enhance our skills.

    The reason why many developers like us are happy with Iron Speed is because we found a lot of brilliant capabilities that no similar product can offer and these efficacies, I believe can only be experienced or fully expressed by developers who knows the product by heart.

    Cheers

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Miles Gibson

    I have no problem revealing that I too am an Iron Speed MVP. I have been successfully building and delivering great web database applications for over five years, because of Iron Speed. Lets examine your issues one by one:

    1) You should be dealing with one to one and one to many issues in the database anyway, instead of burying it with yet more code.
    2) Iron Speed supports FireFox as well as IE. It works well with other browsers. How much time do you need to spend supporting every other browser out there?
    3) It does enable ViewState for every control, you can turn that off if you want.
    4) Every new version Iron Speed releases supports more uses of CSS. In the mean time when I can save 80% of my time on a project, I am ok with tables.
    5) The applications run just fine, out of the box with a normalized database. Nuf said.
    6) Anything you can do in VS can be used in Iron Speed. So run out there and get a tool that generates web services and incorporate it into Iron Speed.
    7) Version 6 is fast. You should try it, a major improvement over previous versions, which were aleady great products. Maybe you need a new box. Pentiums are old technology now.
    8) Support is available from Iron Speed directly with paid support, from the forums for free, manned on a volunteer basis by all of the MVP's, or (gasp) you could hire an MVP and solve your problem quickly. Surely the hundred or so clients I have trained, mentored or worked with over the past five years can't be wrong, can they?

    And in conclusion, unless you want to hire someone to spend all their time and your money "crafting" the data/business/UI layers, get with the program and invest in something that works. Iron Speed is the only tool out there that generates all three layers, with a great looking UI Layer.

    Iron Speed is EXACTLY the tool that you want for application development. I know of clients in every industry using this tool to great success.

    Miles Gibson
    Iron Speed MVP

    It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Mohannad Amr

    Dear All,
    I went through the different viewpoints and I think that there are valid points everywhere.. However, let's be objective and not be blindly biased with or against.. let me also initially declare that am an MVP too, I have been using ISD since 2005 and have developed tens if not hundreds of business applications using this tool.. and all in all it is worth doing.. I believe I'm a profissional who respects his choices, and just like all other MVPs I'm not part of IronSpeed payroll bill.

    Being realistic, I know this is earth where everything has another side, pros and cons, ISD has improved tremendously a lot over the last 4 years. By definition issues and bugs are part of any software (have you heard of the most popular OS MS Windows!), as long as it is being developed continuously and is supported, those issues are part of life and don't form a worth to mention exception.

    If the product is sometimes perceived as expensive, I wouldn't say it is cheap, but that is to cover the massive RnD behind the far improvements that the product has witnessed. Besides, it is still way cheaper than the other development environments from Sun or Microsoft.

    Re the compatibility with browsers, speaking from my experience it is fully compatible with IE and firefox which is more than 85% of the global browser market share! what else you want!

    The bottom line is that ISD is a great tool that carries out the routine tasks and leaves your team to focus on their differentiation.. which is what makes some systems better than others... all systems do the same basic routine stuff, but the fine touches and the well-thought of customizations are what makes the deference.. IronSpeed Designer lets you to focus on those..
    just my 2%

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Mohannad Amr

    Just one last word, IronSpeed gives anybody the chance to evaluate the product for 2 weeks FREE of any charges or future commitments.. those who are new, just give it a try an judge yourself, I believe it is a hard to live without...

    Mohannad Amr
    MBA-UK, PMP, MCSD, MCP, MSF, IronSpeed MVP
    www.HedgehogSol.com

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez

    And since not single one of this "MVPs" cared enought to answer the question: "functionally complete crud generator?", I guess I'll guess I have to conclude that Curtis Schiewek is rigth, this MVPs are quick to say "Iron Speed is great" but have no interest on backing up those claims with an actual technical description if its features.

    I guess it should be another functionally incomplete generator that only works for simple database/object models and fails for the real world complex models.

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by James Whistler

    I'm afraid I can't let Francisco's comments go unchallenged. I'm also an Ironspeed MVP but I hope that doesn't automatically diminish the validity of my input.

    To suggest that none of the MVPs who have commented previously have any interest in providing a full technical description of its features is missing the point. If you have specific queries there is a wealth of material on the Iron Speed website which you can read at your leisure.

    I also believe that you are missing the point on the CRUD generator question. No product is ever a perfect solution for every possible requirement, be it IT related or otherwise. None of the MVPs are suggesting that Iron Speed Designer is always the right choice of development product for every project.

    What Iron Speed Designer does well, it does extremely well. It has enabled me to develop applications of varying size and scope quickly, reliably and, most importantly, profitably. It has saved me months of effort in both development and testing.

    It's the most comprehensive code generator I've ever used.

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez

    Finally, someone that at least cared to answer. I think it is important to say you are Ironspeed MVP before someone else says it, you guys should have done that, to protect your credibility.

    Now, you are supossed to be the experts (MVPs) on Ironspeed, and you do not even know if the product for which you are experts is able to fullfill the 5 simple requirements that would make it a functionally complete crud generator? Of course I do not expect you to fulfill all of them at the 100%, but maybe if you tell me you can deal with over the 90% of the requirements (like AribaWeb) I (and others) could consider you for a future project

    While it is nice that you can say that "Iron speeed has enabled [you] to develop applications of varying size and scope quickly, reliably and, most importantly, profitably" that just a subjective statement, if you really want to promote this product, you should start by discussing how you generator performs when meassured by objective criteria, like the one offered in here. Without that, this is just an exercise on futility.

    Show me objective comparisons with crud applications generators like AribaWeb, AppFuse, SeamGen, or Rails.

    Or show me objective comparisions of you templating language with Microsoft T4, CodeSmith, FreeMarker, etc.

    Without that, is just your opinion against that of anyone else, and that does not help on making an objective good choice.

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Miles Gibson

    Ok, so what are the "5 simple requirements that would make it a functionally complete crud generator" ?? And who decided
    that these five simple rules were the determinant anyway? A complete CRUD code generator will generate all THREE layers, a
    and not just one or two, like most of the others. This is a .NET product, and does not, and likely will not compete in
    the Java/Open Source environment. If there are better tools out there, regardless of the platform, I haven't seen it.

    There is no product out there that does it all, not Microsoft, not Borland, not CodeSmith, not Sun. Nor will that ever happend,
    vendors focus on doing one thing VERY WELL, not everything half-baked. FWIW, thats my 2 cents worth.

    Oh, and I did state that I am an Iron Speed MVP in my first response.

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Paul Modiano

    Francisco,

    Like a desperate debater, you continually redefine the argument. This is a tactic that is often seen when the opposing case is losing its legs. You present me with a Wiki from whatever that defines a "functional CRUD" even though the very basis of our disagreement never included the contention about nebulous musings on some site about their definition about something of which I nor anyone else ever made a claim of.

    There is no question in my mind that you have some kind of axe to grind that extends well beyond that of a disgruntled customer. The vehemence of your position and inability to consider an alternative possibility confirms this, at least for me.

    And the consequential clarity of the futility of this discussion has tired me to a point that I will bow out.

    I will leave it to others of greater patience and kinder dispositions to refute your clearly orchestrated campaign.

    Yours,

    Paul.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Curtis Schiewek

    I have no problem revealing that I too am an Iron Speed MVP. I have been successfully building and delivering great web database applications for over five years, because of Iron Speed. Lets examine your issues one by one:

    1) You should be dealing with one to one and one to many issues in the database anyway, instead of burying it with yet more code.


    That's exactly what I did. I had to write a bunch of views and triggers to similuate one-many tables so that Ironspeed would do it's job properly. All this did was move the code from the app to the database, which dosen't save me any time whatsoever and makes moving to another database technology much more difficult. If there are tons of other ORM solutions that can handle many-to-many in a sane fashion why can't Ironspeed?


    2) Iron Speed supports FireFox as well as IE. It works well with other browsers. How much time do you need to spend supporting every other browser out there?


    I have had absolutely no luck with getting rendering the work 100% in anything other then IE6 or 7 (yes, even IE8 breaks some IronSpeed layouts). Now, supporting many browsers may not be important to you, but it is to anyone writing public facing apps that need as high a percentage of end-user acceptance as possible.


    3) It does enable ViewState for every control, you can turn that off if you want.


    To be fair, this is more of a problem with the fact that Ironspeed uses ASP (ViewState/Webforms are quite crappy, so much so that I fully anticipate that ASP.NET MVC will be the default app type come .NET 4.0/VS2010).


    4) Every new version Iron Speed releases supports more uses of CSS. In the mean time when I can save 80% of my time on a project, I am ok with tables.


    You might be OK with tables but I'm not. Have you ever tried to create a very basic table control in Ironspeed without all the pagination, table, and row controls. After you spend an hour deleting all the useless buttons (do we really need to export every table to excel, word and PDF?) you spend another 2 hours cleaning up all the empty tables, rows, columns, and cells Ironspeed leaves behind.


    5) The applications run just fine, out of the box with a normalized database. Nuf said.


    That's funny, because as I just explained, I had to de-normalize my database to remove all the many-to-many relationships just to get IronSpeed to work as advertised. Not to mention the plethora of bugs, my favorite being that I have to run the the table control wizards (yes, you "develop" with wizards) twice because the filter and search settings never take on the first pass. No to mention the fact that Ironspeed constantly thinks that my AppInfo.xml is corrupted whenever I use SVN or VisualStudio while IronSpeed is running.


    6) Anything you can do in VS can be used in Iron Speed. So run out there and get a tool that generates web services and incorporate it into Iron Speed.


    You can't debug in Ironspeed, and you can't "generate" Ironspeed code in Visual Stuio, which means you are constantly swapping back and forth, which takes upwards of 10 minutes on even smaller sized projects (10-20 tables). And given the continued importance being placed on Web Services (RESTful services in particular) you'd think that Ironspeed would at least mention it on their roadmap.


    Ironspeed 6 is really fast. You should try it, a major improvement over previous versions, which were aleady great products. Maybe you need a new box. Pentiums are old technology now.


    My main development box is a 2.4GHZ Core 2 Duo with 8GB of RAM, so I highly doubt that my box is the problem. And unless they re-wrote the entire IDE from scratch with 6 (which I doubt since it still feels very much like 5), I doubt it will be any better then 4/5.


    8) Support is available from Iron Speed directly with paid support, from the forums for free, manned on a volunteer basis by all of the MVP's, or (gasp) you could hire an MVP and solve your problem quickly.


    Do you really think it's fair that I should PAY a company to fix a BUG in their software when I not only bought and paid for the licensing, but I also pay yearly maintenance? If you buy a brand new car and two weeks later the breaks stop working, would expect to pay to get them fixed?


    Surely the hundred or so clients I have trained, mentored or worked with over the past five years can't be wrong, can they?


    I don't think it's outside the realm of possiblity that large groups of people can all be "wrong" about their opinions on a particular matter.


    And in conclusion, unless you want to hire someone to spend all their time and your money "crafting" the data/business/UI layers, get with the program and invest in something that works.


    Why should "invest" in Ironspeed (which is really just a mediocre ORM/Crud generator for ASP) when their are hundreds of better options that are completely free of licensing costs, with significantly larger communities supporting them (Rails, Django, CakePHP, one of the hundreds of Java frameworks, etc)?


    Iron Speed is the only tool out there that generates all three layers,


    What? Ironspeed is the only solution that generates all three layers? Am I really to believe that a proffesionnal is that oblivious to all the other technology that exists out there?


    with a great looking UI Layer.


    Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder, so I will let others judge for themselves. You should also take note of the "blazing" performance.


    Iron Speed is EXACTLY the tool that you want for application development. I know of clients in every industry using this tool to great success.


    I'll say it again, Ironspeed is only really useful to end-user types who are used to creating so-called "apps" in MS Access and want the make the jump to the web, and even then, there are better, cheaper solutions out that there that fit the bill.

    Curtis

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez

    I have provided a link to those 5 rules since my first post... did you even bothered to read it?

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Francisco Jose Peredo Noguez

    The only ones that seem desperate here are the IronSpeed MVPs, as you seem unable to provide objective evidence of any advantage on using IronSpeed, I am not refining anything, I am just repeating the same question over and over, to see if any of you bother to discuss the technical advantages or disadvantages of IronSpeed from an objective perspective, but you seem more interested in fighting over subjective opinons than trying to evaluate generators from a objective POV.

    Also, please bother to read the name of the people posting here, the disgruntled customer is Curtis Schiewek, not me, I have said I ever used your product, I am only interested in comparing it against an objective list of rules to find a good way to compare code generators.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Miles Gibson

    Did you ever stop to think, for a moment anyway, that the problem lies between the chair and the keyboard? Iron Speed handles pair tables ( many-to-many) relationships beautifully. It generates a FULL CRUD out of the box every time for me. But I can only guess at your experience ( or lack thereof) at real-world data modeling techniques...

    If you have found better products than Iron Speed for generating all three layers, then show it to me! I looked for years and didn't find one alternative that came close, and to this day still haven't seen anything that comes close, not in terms of great looking interfaces, or in terms of beautiful architecture.

    I have sucessfully built many applications with 30-90 entities, many pair tables, forks, one-to-one, self-joins and on and on... Apparently I know something you don't.

    Have a great day.

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Miles Gibson

    Curiously enough, as an Iron Speed MVP, I am too busy accepting new contracts from clients to be desperate. If Iron Speed was all that bad, then no one would be using it.

    Instead, I have clients from all over the world calling me to work with them on Iron Speed projects. Recession, what recession? Folks are calling us, because Iron Speed works!!! They want applications built quickly, that look good, and deliver as promised. They do not particularly care about "rules" for correct CRUD generation, they just want stuff that works...

    Curtis may or may not be a disgruntled customer, however I am sorry to hear that he had a bad experience with the product. Perhaps he should contact an MVP, to get the real story on how to build great applications quickly...

    As for your situation, I am not sure what your circumstances are that require different database formats, but remember that Iron Speed supports mySQL, Oracle and Access, as well as SQL Server. And you can "flip" your application between database formats quickly in most circumstances. For example, if you wanted to deliver your product in different configurations, you could do that with Iron Speed.

    If you find a product that you think is better than Iron Speed, I would be interested in a subjective comparison of features, rather than the broad representation of your five rules. It seems like you want your cake and eat it too.

    Cheers,

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Curtis Schiewek

    Did you ever stop to think, for a moment anyway, that the problem lies between the chair and the keyboard?


    I fully acknowledge that if I had a better understanding of Ironspeeds idiosyncrasies that I would most likely have an easier time overcoming my issues. Part of the problem is my stubborn reluctance to sacrifice a proper, well thought out design just to use a specific tool like Ironspeed. And therein lies my biggest problem with the product: It lacks the flexibility to implement the "best" design choices, and rather, pushes you to design your application the way IronSpeed wants you to.

    Curtis

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Miles Gibson

    Using a tool like Iron Speed is a shift from traditional thinking,
    no question. However, once you have made that shift, then I think you
    will find that the advantages really outweigh the disadvantages. In my humble opinion,
    the architecture of an Iron Speed application, especially at the code/class level is really beautiful.
    I can retrieve a dataset of records in 2-3 lines of code... No more mind-numbing repetitous coding
    of the data/business layers and so on. All three layers work together...

    If you are still interested in taking another crack at Iron Speed, I would be willng to spend some time
    with you ( no charge ) to answer your questions, one on one.

    Cheers,

    Re: It has been my best choice over the last 4 years by Bhabani Swamy

    I completely agree with Miles. I have come across lots of debates like this before. I was keeping quiet until recently till my agreement with my previous company has ended.

    I am no MVP but I have used Ironspeed and used it to heart's content since version 3. I am the architect in my company and I love working with ISD. What we require from any code generator to generate nice systematic and clear code which are easy to modify and understand. Ironspeed does that and does it to a great accuracy.

    I feel its better to have a ready made UI instantly than to design one from scratch. I also love the consistency between pages and layout. More over if you don't like the UI design yourself as a template. We have done it couple of times too.

    The best part is it runs from the beginning. In most applications hell lot of time is wasted by modifying and re modifying cilents change requests. Why not have a instant UI generator which will create an app for your trial run in days not in weeks/months, and you are at the liberty to use the rest of the time in making alterations/ modifications?

    It generates all three layers and quite easy to implement and alter. No one should expect any code gen to do everything for them. After all developers are required to modify, irrespective of how great the product is.
    I don't deny that there are issues/ bugs with ISD, but it has become quite stable post v4.2 releases. And BTW which application dosen't have bugs?

    In my company some programmers don't like ISD. My observation to that is; people who think they know more than the technology itself shall fall into the category of aforesaid guys.

    After all we want stuff to work and ISD dose 80% of the job. Rest depends on your programmers ans architects. It saves us money and time. No code gen I have seen dose it to that level. And I don't give damn about compliances to any rule as long as my application works and clients are happy.

    So all the ISD guys
    Cheers

    Re: Strongly disagree with the knock against the Ironspeed Free Download by John Mullally

    I'm just a hobbyist. My career involves writing embedded software. The Free Download is good
    for developing a nice looking Web App based upon 8-12 tables. Making customizations to the
    generated code is a good way to move into object oriented software (from the straight C code
    that I am used to). By writing my own customizations I have been able to mimic some of the
    features that come with the paid version and some features that Ironspeed does not advertise -like
    making a very rich Order Entry that is based largely upon a sophisticated view.

    Re: Avoid at all costs... by Shayne Judkins

    I am considering Iron Speed for our Company to solve those "quick and dirty" CRUD web
    apps we are constantly wrting. One thing I have read in this discussion is that
    IS can't handle Many-To-Many relationships. I can't remember the last time I designed
    a database that didn't have a Many-To-Many relationship (using a mapping or cross-
    reference table). Am I in the minority here? I thought many-to-many relationships
    was Hierarchial Database Sesign 101. (In order to eliminate duplicate data....)

    Anyway, I would like someone (one of the MVPs?) to elaborate on how they handle Many-
    To-Many relationships using IS, or how/why they chose not to design Many-To-Many
    relationships. (Of course, I could build Store Procedures to "hide" the Many-To-Many,
    but that seems "wrong" for some reason.)

    Thanks for any input!

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