Oracle Proposes Hudson Move to Eclipse Foundation

I really hope this will help merge Jenkins and Hudson back to a single open source project, I think with the efforts of Cloudbees and Sonatype Hudson/Jenkins can once again rule the CI server world. It would certainly stop me looking at Bamboo :-)

This is going to put a lot of conspiracy theorists out of business.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

Well, @Cloudbees just tweeted this an hour ago: We will stand behind the decision of the #JenkinsCI community.

Oracle Subpoenas Apache in Google Android Lawsuit.

Your right, with so much proof, it can't be a theory.

Terrible Grammar. I'm ashamed. I meant "you're" not "your".

How is this Oracle's fault. Sun should have clarified things when android came out to begin with. If you want to blame someone, blame Sun management. Google should do the right thing and properly license Java. then everyone can move on.

Resorting to legal battles is exactly what I mean. Oracle would rather tear the Java community apart (and send them running to other platforms) than allow a rival to innovate on the platform. This isn't just about Google, this is about the aggressive actions Oracle has taken against the Java community (look at all the problems the Apache Foundation has had). And why would I blame Sun? Oracle owns Sun now and could make this go away if they desired.

Ha, what happened? Sonatype not doing the job well enough?

"will continue to invest in the project both in terms of leading the project at Eclipse and continuing to staff full-time employees in the areas of development, QA, documentation and product management."

So nothing much has changed then except that are using the eclipse foundation as a white wash? So if the jenkins people came back their treatment would be different somehow?

Face it. Oracle is not Sun, does not want to be and never will be. They have proven this with so many very public examples in such a short amount of time that calling it a "conspiracy" insults us and makes you out to be a fool.

But since you work for Oracle I assume it is more Kool(aid) than Fool which is more forgivable I guess.

It's good move.we may expect more significant development in CI world.
It's good if hudson and jenkins merge and provide much more functionality than commercial CI tools.

> So nothing much has changed then except that are using the eclipse foundation as a white wash?

White wash? Trying to cover up the fact that Oracle is investing "full-time employees in the areas of development, QA, documentation and product management"? Trying to hide the fact that Oracle just donated the trademark and IP to an independent OSS organization? (Just like the community was asking for!!!)

Seriously, on the evil scale, I think Oracle can probably do way better than this ;-)

This just goes to prove that some people will find something to complain about in anything. You really should be ashamed.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

Like no problem with Hudson ever occurred? Like developers of Hudson had no problem with infrastructure without proper warning? Like everything was clearly communicated early enough? I don't know, I'm just a remote observer, but this really doesn't seem so. If there were no Jenkins/Hudson split then maybe it's OK, but now this positive news (and positive it is) seems to me like (too little?) too late.

Also the lawsuit vs Google will never make you any better in the eyes of community, so hope it will be worth it. I hope it will not.

I don't work for Oracle. Having said that, Oracle knows how to make money and do it well. All this drama is just silly in my mind. All of this non-sense about google vs oracle is silly. Google has the money to license Java, but they chose not to. Sun ignored it when they should have made some kind of formal agreement. If you just paid lots of money for Sun, what would you do?

The whole TCK is more complicated than my insight can understand. From what I know though, Sun's TCK policy wasn't nicely in line with their own license or promises or whatever. And talking about what I would do... well, not this. ;-) But then, I don't run Oracle. This whole thing is indeed silly, but it's not only community's fault. It's not like Oracle finally makes some move and community is going to be groovy about it. The way Sun wasted their commercial potential, the way they had not clear strategy (funny enough, many people around me said 10 yeras back that Sun would go down in 5 years, so Sun was actually successfull :-)), doesn't change anything on the fact that I liked the company, their ideas, and so on.

I'm not so keen on Oracle, but I have to live with it, it does many things right... but how Sun wasted their commercial potential so does Oracle with its community potential. Many things are actually about feelings and many ppl feel that way, whether it's conspiracy or not (it's not for me for example). But then again, I don't care about Oracle's money, Oracle does, and if sueing Google is the best thing to do (for them), whatever. Just no wonder we have feelings about it. :-) Right now Google runs many interesting projects and I care for them more than for Oracle.

Keep guzzling that drink.

I am not ashamed and it would be highly inappropriate for me to feel that way.
I don't blame Oracle for acting in a selfish and open source community destroying manner. I know oracle products, how they are developed and the quality of them and how they are sold etc. (even with the flag ship DB product) So I am not surprised or even outraged that they acted this way.

This does not constitute a CHANGE in behavior for them.

However this IS a change for the java community (incl. me) and I don't have to like it. I don't have to lie about it or delude myself it is anything other than it is: a sloppy attempt at a corporate takeover of the amazing java community. It has fail and will continue to, but the damage it is doing along the way is unforgivable.

well, an open source project belongs to the community and community has moved the porject to jenkins so hudson is a dead piece of code.

if eclipse has any respect and human feeling to open source community and right ownership justice then when oracle proposed them to offer hudson they shoud have refused and rather have asked first to jenkins community to join eclipse.

here i see first culprit was oracle and now second culprit is eclipse who is joining now to oracle to kill jenkins by biasing hudson.

backoff eclipse

It looks like Mik Kersten of Tasktop has closed the comments on his article about the issue tasktop.com/blog/eclipse/proposal-hudson-eclipse

Here is the essence of what I tried to post as a comment:

So many words about simple things.

Here are some interesting numbers from KK.
www.slideshare.net/kohsuke/current-state-of-jen...

As an avid user of Linux and various Apache tools the choice is clear.

TaskTop, VMware, Sonatype, and Intuit hope to generate more revenues by controlling Hudson through Eclipse.

A spade is a spade

Best Regards

> .. hudson is a dead piece of code.
> if eclipse has any respect and human feeling to open source community
> and right ownership justice then when oracle proposed them to offer
> hudson they shoud have refused and rather have asked first to jenkins
> community to join eclipse.
> here i see first culprit was oracle and now second culprit is eclipse
> who is joining now to oracle to kill jenkins by biasing hudson.
> backoff eclipse

OK, after a post like this, I'm going to have to completely re-evaluate my position. Normally, when I read something like this, I assume two things: (1) that I am rational and sane and that I am reading something that obviously does not hold together in a rational sense, and (2) that some other sane person will have had the courage to point out that the post that I'm reading is paranoid and/or delusional. Since that has not happened, I am going to have to assume that all of my points of reference are invalid.

Just to help me clue in on the source of this vitriol, which of the following are bad things:

1) Oracle proposed today that the Hudson project be transferred to the Eclipse Foundation
2) To accomplish this, Oracle is re-licensing the code under the Eclipse Public License
3) Oracle is turning over ownership of the Hudson domain to the Eclipse Foundation
4) Oracle is turning over ownership of the Hudson trademark to the Eclipse Foundation

Or is there something deeply troubling that I'm missing? Because I would have thought that these were good things, and I'm a little bit surprised by the rabid response to Oracle doing what seems to be the "right thing".

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

> TaskTop, VMware, Sonatype, and Intuit hope to generate more revenues by
> controlling Hudson through Eclipse.

Yeah, that evil Intuit. First they make tax returns easy. Now they want to control Hudson through Eclipse. There's obviously money in this for Intuit. (Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy?)

As you said somewhere else:

> This is not an open source drama. It is about companies, or organizations
> (acting for companies) trying to gain ownership of something which is not
> theirs.

This is a very good point. Perhaps you could start by being clear on the ownership: What company would you say that Hudson belonged to? What company funded and started the project? What company paid to have it developed?

It certainly wasn't that certain VC-backed company that tried to take control of Hudson, was it? And when their attempt to take control of Hudson failed, they started the campaign of FUD that you are now continuing on their behalf.

It is a strange world indeed when the company that funded the creation and development of Hudson is attacked first for preventing the project's hijacking by another company (one that hired the original developer of Hudson, specifically for the purpose of building a business around Hudson), and then attacked again for donating the Hudson IP -- including the code and the trademark -- to a trusted open source group.

I couldn't have said it better than this:

The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary

I do not know why these companies are on the list.

I mean. There is money in this. Right? Or they are just on the list because they feel they have to be.

What I find strange is that the company that should be there is not. CloudBees.
And I have to wonder why?

I am just an old programmer. Being at it for the last 25 years.
Just let me ask you. A programmer to programmer. What did you write in Hudson/Jenkins?

Tell me. Why would I take notice of your Eclipse waving?

All I need to do is point my browser to Jenkins and there I find programmers working for programmers.

What I do not understand is why you make the effort. I guess by now it's obvious to anyone what the meaning of this spectacle is.

Best Regards.

Cameron,

I think your position at Oracle leaves you blinded to the fact that the community doesn't trust Oracle, even when it attempts to do something good. Oracle's become Microsoft (circa 2000); like Microsoft, Oracle will have to do a lot more for the community before the open source community lets its guard down. Pestering every poster who has said something negative about Oracle is certainly not helping the company's case.

Richard

Bjorn -

You didn't answer my questions -- not that you must answer them, but more that I would have helped me understand your position.

> What I find strange is that the company that should be there is not. CloudBees.
> And I have to wonder why?

I assume they're not there because they don't want to be. I guess you'd have to ask them why. From their hostile reaction to this announcement, it would appear that Hudson becoming part of Eclipse isn't good news for them.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

Richard -

> I think your position at Oracle leaves you blinded to the fact
> that the community doesn't trust Oracle, even when it attempts
> to do something good.

I do perceive the lack of trust, and I've personally witnessed several of the events (like the Apache issue with JDK7) that led to that lack of trust. I'm just surprised that when something so simple and straightforward happens like this, that there's such a negative backlash. Oracle has donated other projects to Eclipse over the years, like Toplink (now the RI for the JPA standard), and that didn't cause a brouhaha.

> Oracle's become Microsoft (circa 2000)

... that's not going to help recruiting.

> Pestering every poster who has said something negative about Oracle
> is certainly not helping the company's case.

And allowing such ridiculous group-think (actively promulgated by a commercial entity with an agenda) to go unquestioned is irresponsible.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

This cannot be group-think because we are not talking directly to each other and influencing our opinions and all the other things that cause group think. We have all come here to voice the opinions we have formed as independently of each other as they can be. I suggest you do more research on it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

What is amusing is that because they are all similar you assign the derogatory label of "group think" and consider our position weakened. Obviously just mindless sheep following each other.
How wrong could you be?? You position is ridiculous.

And if some people are angry and over reacting to certain aspects of all this then that is just to be expected and, to be frank, deserved. The public don't react the way you want them to and are not 100% rational all the time. They also don't get to sit around Oracle's boardroom table so don't know what EXACTLY Oracle have planned and are planning now.
Oracle have generated negative feelings and this has been well justified. You don't now get to control how people feel about it or how negative emotions spin off from it.
Sorry, that is just the way it is.

However there is a danger that group think is exactly what is happening at Oracle but of course I do not work there. I am pretty sure you have all been sat round a table and had things "explained" to you though in the corp-speak way that these things are - that is just standard procedure.
In fact I would go as far to say that the Oracle management thinking that this was EVER going to go down any other way if they pulled the stunts they did was a classic result of a group think environment.

But good work tarnishing your brand and Java's with it. Masterfully done...

If only google had bought sun?!?!

I hate to be redundant, but:

Just to help me clue in on the source of this vitriol, which of the following are bad things:

1) Oracle proposed today that the Hudson project be transferred to the Eclipse Foundation
2) To accomplish this, Oracle is re-licensing the code under the Eclipse Public License
3) Oracle is turning over ownership of the Hudson domain to the Eclipse Foundation
4) Oracle is turning over ownership of the Hudson trademark to the Eclipse Foundation

Or is there something deeply troubling that I'm missing? Because I would have thought that these were good things, and I'm a little bit surprised by the rabid response to Oracle doing what seems to be the "right thing".

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

You are missing it on purposed.
So let me rewrite that somewhat myopic history of what happened:
0.1) Sun develops Hudson
0.2) Oracle buys Sun and starts to throw its weight around on various OS projects.
0.3) At some stage they try to "take over" the Hudson project from the main contributor and threaten legal action over the trademark.
0.4) Jenkins team discuss turning trademark over to 3rd party and other options which Oracle refuses.
0.5) Jenkins was born and now the community is split.
0.6) Jenkins does very well and Oracle most likely realizes the capacity to further monetize Hudson is a non-starter now.
1) Oracle proposed today that the Hudson project be transferred to the Eclipse Foundation
2) To accomplish this, Oracle is re-licensing the code under the Eclipse Public License
3) Oracle is turning over ownership of the Hudson domain to the Eclipse Foundation
4) Oracle is turning over ownership of the Hudson trademark to the Eclipse Foundation
5) Oracle does reach out to the Jenkins community.
6) Oracle does not turn over "leadership" of the project.

So yeah. Not impressed. Not feeling a lot of love for Oracle. Not really sure how you could have followed this story and see Oracle in a good light.
Jenkins on the other hand has won a victory of sorts but it remains to be seen what "leading the project at Eclipse" actually means.

But feel free not to take off those rosey glasses and keep waving that flag. I mean you used you real name and work there so I honestly understand.

So going by that description, just about every company including Sun should get "no love". Sun did similar things before they were bought out, so did you "have love" for Sun? I'm all for demanding ethical behavior from large corporations, but it really isn't a person. Even if the US government "considers" a corporation a person, it isn't. Expecting a corporation to behave like a saint is just silly in my mind. No company in the fortune 500 would pass the test, which is good. Loving a corporation doesn't make any sense in my mind. Putting any kind of "faith" in a corporation is bound to make you feel really sad and disappointed.

There's a business case for doing the right thing. Outside of the JVM, I refuse to use any Oracle product on pure principal. In many cases you're right; I don't love big oil companies, but I buy gas. The difference is the availability of choice in the market. The JVM is at a critical point and Oracle controls its destiny. If Oracle doesn't nurture the Java Community, developers are going to flee to Python, Ruby, .NET, etc. There are better enterprise languages than Java on the market today and the only thing tieing us to the language is the community.

0.1) Sun develops Hudson
0.2) Oracle buys Sun and starts to throw its weight around on various OS projects.
0.3) At some stage they try to "take over" the Hudson project from the main contributor and threaten legal action over the trademark.

So yeah. Not impressed. Not feeling a lot of love for Oracle. Not really sure how you could have followed this story and see Oracle in a good light.

But feel free not to take off those rosey glasses and keep waving that flag. I mean you used you real name and work there so I honestly understand.

Hi Mike Keith from Oracle.

Thanks for joining in. Again, I understand why you say what you are saying but I just don't agree.

You first mistake is that I was using logic to come up with the sequence of events. If you look at the commentary on this in the news (and I have) you will find that this is the way it is reported across the board.
I am not biased. I have worked with Hudson and Oracle DB extensively in the past. In fact on my last project I wished we were using Oracle DB instead of Postgres. Never had anything against Oracle before. Did not immediately start hating on Oracle when they bought Sun.
In fact I waited to see what their plans were because I concluded Oracle bought Sun for a 'reason' and it was just a question of what that might be.

Again, if you are going to bandy about "bias" as a way to dismiss the public's opinion then you will have to dismiss your own. You work for oracle (unless this is a strange coincidence of names) and are here under your real name commenting on them. By the way, that is why I post anon.

In my case I was not always happy with every decision Sun made and did not "pre-hate" the Oracle takeover. However I am very unhappy with how Oracle have been acting with the community lately. I think they are very foolish and libreoffice and jenkins are perfect examples of why they are being very foolish about all this.
"Java" was no longer just about Sun it was about the Java community - its standards bodies, its contributors and the companies like Spring Source that have actively fostered communities, good will, fairies and bunnies in the way they work.

What Oracle is doing is trampling all over the top of that. Fortunately it appears that the community is very resilient to this. However Richard hit the nail on the head as to how damaging this could end up being for them if they were continue this route. (and it appears that they are not since Jenkins is doing FAAAR more successfully than Hudson based on what I have read about where supporters, plugin projects, integration etc has moved to.)

What I find amusing is you desperately attach your argument to the only non-Oracle employee here that is not actively against you. And a summary of his opinion is: "Oracle is a corporation, corporations are not good, so why are you expecting Oracle to be."

Very amusing and very telling to be honest.

I don't want to dislike Oracle. I wanted Oracle to inject a new energy and positive drive and cash into java. The only way to do this was with the community as this is what java is nowadays. They simply have not done this and are in danger of going the other way.

But feel 'free' to have your own opinion and I will be free to have mine without fear of reprisal. Such is the wonder of the anonymous Internet.

Again, if you are going to bandy about "bias" as a way to dismiss the public's opinion then you will have to dismiss your own. You work for oracle (unless this is a strange coincidence of names) and are here under your real name commenting on them. By the way, that is why I post anon.

You first mistake is that I was using logic

Very true. I was not using logic to deduce facts. Just stating what the history was.

So let's get this straight. The only supporters of Oracle right now work for them or Sonartype??

Got it.

Case closed basically. I am done with this crony nonsense. Honestly. You guys are bordering on pathetic here.

> Just stating what the history was.

Not sure who you are, "Mr. Magoo", but you can learn a little more of the history on this more recent InfoQ thread:

www.infoq.com/news/2011/05/jenkins-eclipse

> Case closed basically. I am done with this crony nonsense. Honestly. You guys are bordering on pathetic here.

You're posting under the name "Mr. Magoo", but more in the pattern of "Joe Murray" or "Arun Patel" ..

What's pathetic is that someone can anonymously spread FUD and distort history. Case closed.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle

"Mr. Magoo" we have a real name policy at InfoQ, please edit your preferences and provide your real name so as to improve the quality and seriousness of the comments here at InfoQ. If you continue posting under an alias, your posts may be deleted.

thanks,

Floyd
Chief Editor

Feel free to delete them then.

I have an anonymous internet policy that takes precedence.